Liam Callanan on Trump vs. the Pope

Acclaimed novelist Liam Callanan joins co-hosts V.V. Ganeshananthan and Whitney Terrell to discuss American-born Pope Leo XIV’s recent conflicts with the Trump administration. Callanan, who is Catholic, contextualizes the pope’s critiques of the Iran war and other political comments within the long history of the Vatican’s outspokenness against social injustices. Callanan also talks about the heroine of his most recent novel, When in Rome, a realtor named Claire who finds herself torn between returning to an old flame and taking the veil. He explains Catholicism’s connections to writing and tells the story of his own surreal encounter with the magnetic Pope Francis, who passed away last year. Callanan previews the role faith plays in his upcoming nonfiction debut, Stone Age Astronaut, the biography of a record-setting aviator who becomes a priest. He reads from When in Rome.

To hear the full episode, subscribe through iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app (include the forward slashes when searching). You can also listen by streaming from the player below. Check out video versions of our interviews on the Fiction/Non/Fiction Instagram account, the Fiction/Non/Fiction YouTube Channel, and our show website: https://www.fnfpodcast.net/ This podcast is produced by Jennifer Maritza McCauley, V.V. Ganeshananthan and Whitney Terrell.

Liam Callanan

When in Rome • Stone Age Astronaut: The Astonishing Adventures of America’s Forgotten Flier • Paris by the Book • Listen & Other Stories • All Saints • The Cloud Atlas

Others

Trump Attacks Pope Leo as Too Liberal and ‘Weak on Crime’ – The New York Times • JD Vance defends Trump amid spat with Pope Leo: ‘Stick to matters of morality’ • Pope Leo responds to Trump’s attack: ‘I’m not afraid of the Trump administration’ • Author Liam Callanan’s Work Is Animated by His Catholic Faith • The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky • Audience with participants in the Conference organized by “La Civiltà Cattolica” with Georgetown University, May 27, 2023

EXCERPT FROM A CONVERSATION WITH LIAM CALLANAN

V.V. Ganeshananthan: So we are going to talk about Pope Leo’s most recent conflict with President Trump over the war in Iran. We’re always going to get to President Trump sometime, although in this case, the conflict seems to be all on Trump’s end. But before we get to that, I am curious about how popular Pope Leo is outside the U.S. Do Italian Catholics like him, given his history as a missionary doing work in the Global South? Does he have global popularity, and did he kind of have a strong reputation prior to this? Did they approve of his selection?

Liam Callanan: I think that he is. I saw one poll that said he’s the most popular figure worldwide. I don’t know exactly how you take a poll like that, but Gallup did, and he placed right up there. I think that he’s also popular with American Catholics. He’s not like a marquee, a movie idol. He’s very unassuming. He’s a very vulnerable leader, and I mean that in a good way, so you don’t expect him to dominate the spotlight. But I think in part, that’s what’s made him popular— his accessibility, his humility and how he approaches situations. For American Catholics, he’s done things that cater to the full spectrum. Progressive Catholics, Conservative Catholics, they’ve each had something to take away from what he’s talked about and done so far as Pope that makes them feel comfortable with him as Pope.

Whitney Terrell: Before we get onto the Iran stuff, people are going over to meet with him. David Axelrod was there recently. Didn’t JD Vance go and meet with this current Pope? Or was it Francis that he met with right before he died? Am I remembering that correctly?

LC: Definitely, the conspiracy theorists are on to that one.

WT: So, you say he’s accessible. What is it like to be near a Pope? How do you meet them? Have you ever met a Pope?

LC: Funny you should ask, Whitney. When I was going around with this book, When in Rome, when the paperback was out, I had the surreal experience of, in fact, getting to go to the Vatican. Pope Francis, near the end of his papacy, had a series of events where he was bringing in communities of people. Artists, comedians, writers, and filmmakers were all coming in, and he was having audiences with each of them for some give and take. Through many magic gyrations of the Holy Spirit, I found myself in the Sala Clementina, one of the large reception rooms in the Vatican, with a delegation from around the world, from Poland, from Nigeria, from Canada, from Britain and from the United States. There were several of us authors there, and then also, somewhat randomly, Martin Scorsese. He’s more difficult to get to meet than the Pope.

But the Pope gave us a wonderful talk. He used to teach high school literature, and he did this close reading a little passage from [Karamazov], and talked about how we needed to not necessarily stay in our lane, we needed to overwhelm the banks of what we marked out for ourselves. So it was really lovely. Then we got to go up one by one and greet him. In my case, I gave him a copy of When in Rome, because I thought he might need a little light reading, and he received it with great glee. He was one of those people—and I don’t know too many people like this—but instantly, I thought, “Oh, he knows me. There might be a million people here. There may be one-and-a-half billion Catholics in the world. But like, he really sees me.” It was clear that he had a very magnetic personality like that. So, it was a lovely experience. And then we went back, and he said a few more words, and then off he went.

I thought, did that just happen? It was, it was surreal. It was like visiting the 16th century, because we were in a castle complete with a ramp that we had to get up to the second floor, which is about five floors up, and we went up this ramp, which apparently was like a 16th century ADA ramp, so your donkey could take you up to the second floor. It was a wide path with little stairs every four or five feet going up. And it was just the most surreal experience. As part of that, I got a sense of what it’s like—I can’t say I got a sense of what it’s like to be pope, but you’re in the midst of all this grandeur. The Sistine Chapel is just downstairs. You’re living in a palace, although, in his case, very famously, he was living in very humble lodgings. But you’re in this kind of magical spot, and it’s hard not to see yourself as part of a larger narrative, shall we say.

WT: So he had some kind of “it” factor that made you go “Okay, there’s a reason why this guy’s Pope”?

LC: Absolutely. He had an eye for wit, and an ear for wit. He was very funny in person. His off-the-cuff remarks were very humorous, and he was just playing things by ear quite a bit. I really enjoyed my time with him. Again, it was 30 seconds, so it wasn’t like the most extraordinary amount of time, either but I was like, “Oh, if I come back like he will see me in the crowd and call me up and say, ‘Here, could you tell me what happened on page four?’” When he took the book, he was like, “Rome!” That was the conversation that we had. I said, “Rome.” We crossed the language barrier just like that. It was quite magical in that regard. And then he started flipping through it, much to the angst of his handlers, who were like, “We need to keep this moving along.” And he was like, “Look at page 150,” and I said, “Well, there’s a cameo in the book where my main character runs laps around St Peter’s Square in the middle of the night.” So I was in the midst of a conversation about “this is how that all works out,” when, in fact, I had to then give up my time in front of the papal throne and go back to my seat.

Transcribed by Otter.ai. Condensed and edited by Rebecca Kilroy.