Wallace Shawn on the Downsides of Civilization

In this episode of A Phone Call From Paul, Paul Holdengraber talks to the playwright Wallace Shawn about his new book, Night Thoughts, the infinite appetites of Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, taking yourself seriously, and what’s in store for civilization.

Wallace Shawn on morals and trees…
Today, strangely, the fate of trees and the fate of people are bizarrely linked. We wouldn’t phrase it that way because now it is really morally permissible to think about trees because the same things that are causing human beings to suffer are causing the trees to suffer. And you could say the same people who’re causing problems for the trees are causing problems for the oppressed people of the world.

Wallace Shawn on being a writer in an actor’s body…
In my own mind, I’ve always been a writer and the fact that I act is, well… it’s been very enjoyable and I love doing it. It has been good for me, but in my own mind I’m just a writer with a bizarre activity—acting—that I undertake.

Wallace Shawn on the downsides of civilization…
Yes, I don’t think she was worried about whether civilization would survive, she was saying it would have been better if it had never developed, that it unleashed and brought with it hierarchy and the subjugation of unlucky people and violence and the brutality that has characterized our history. It took me many years to realize that it was possibly quite true.